The Grand Island Independent Forums

Good point, 2 cents.

Seems those same people who think poor Mexicans should stay in Mexico and "fix" their own country, can't be bothered to "fix" their own situation of not being able to communicate with their desired employer's customers. Seems rather hypocritical in a way.

And I'm sure there are plenty of jobs out there that don't require you to speak Spanish to get them. In any case, it has never been held out as a possibility that a person can get any job he wants whether he has the necessary qualifications to do that job or not. If your desired employer has a customer base that speaks Spanish and he wants an employee that can talk to his customers and YOU can't speak Spanish, then your choices are two: learn Spanish or look elsewhere for a job. It's entirely your choice. Don't whine and feel sorry for yourself. "Fix" your situation and move on. Learn or get left behind.

After that it also says "who shall have elected to become a citizen of the United States" which is very important in this case. They were Mexicans who decided to become American citizens. And just to note, according to the California website, that Constitution is no longer in force. The California Constitution of 1879 currently governs the state and says:






http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/const-toc.html
(Article 3, Sec 6(a))

True. But let me remind you that by 1879 California, like Texas, like Hawaii, had moved from shared power by all involved to being a state totally dominated by white males of European ancestry, who actively sought to suppress any other heritage.

That said, it doesn't change my basic point, which is there are millions of people in this nation whose ancestry in what is now the US long preceded that citizenship, and they have every right to continue honoring that citizenship however they wish (including speaking Spanish if they wish). Remember, they didn't come "here", we moved "there".

I saw a Lou Dobbs poll this morning asking if people should be required to speak only English to vote in elections, and most people responded yes.
But I found myself wondering...American Indians are US citizens. Yet many grew up in cultures which still speak only their own language (be it Navajo, Sioux or whatever). It is their right to do that. It is also, under the Constitution, their right to vote. So are we going to let our growing xenophobia cause us to try and disenfranchise Americans who simply prefer to speak another language?
I hope not...

zoomie said:


I would have also said "Yes" to that poll question...and, it has nothing to do xenophobia, bigotry or racism. I believe we need a common language for the sake of unity.

Why? We've never really had one...

And look at the bigotry and divisivness that resulted. Personally I wish that English was the official language so there could be a shared expectation of communication but I also wish Americans put alot more effort into encouraging bi-lingual adults. In other words I wish there were as many programs to teach adults Spanish (and other languages for that matter) as there are programs to teach English.

Got no problem with that, except I don't think it needs to be made official law. That's fine for nations like France or Germany or Japan, who are essentially a longstanding "natural" nation (for lack of a better term). But we are now and have always been a nation of immigrants, from all over the world. Otherwise, I think you are absolutely correct! When I was stationed in Berlin, I had a German girl once come up to me (having heard me talk to a friend who lived in Germany, in English) and ask why we Americans came to their nation but refused to speak their language. Sadly, she was right. Most servicemen I encounted made little or no effort to learn German.
On the other hand, I had 4yrs of Spanish in JHS and HS, plus 1yr of French in HS, plus 1yr of Latin in college, followed by the USAF sending me to Russian language school (and I worked in the service for 20yrs as both a Russian and Spanish linguist, in intelligence). I also took a year of German, while living there. Oh, and toss in a smattering of Japanese back when I has big into martial arts, under native Japanese instrutors.
And there are still languages I'ld love to study if I had the time!

I agree. Most countries REQUIRE learning a second language as a regular part of early education, something that doesn't seem to happen here....at least not when I was growing up.

As for your first part, English is the official language of several states, INCLUDING NEBRASKA:


Alabama (1990)
Alaska (1998)
Arkansas (1987)
California (1986)
Colorado (1988)
Florida (1988)
Georgia (1986 & 1996)
Hawaii (1978)
Illinois (1969)
Indiana (1984)
Iowa (2002)
Kentucky (1984)
Louisiana (1811)
Massachusetts (1975)
Mississippi (1987)
Missouri (1998)
Montana (1995)
Nebraska (1920)
New Hampshire (1995)
North Carolina (1987)
North Dakota (1987)
South Carolina (1987)
South Dakota (1995)
Tennessee (1984)
Utah (2000)
Virginia (1981 & 1996)
Wyoming (1996)

Arizona's 1988 law was overturned by the Arizona Supreme Court in 1998.




In other words......you still go back to advocating that we, the citizens of this state and of this country, should all learn Spanish and give in to the refusal (that's right...flat out REFUSAL) of many to learn English? Hey, I'd like to learn ANY other language, but I just don't have the aptitude for it. Call it "can't teach an old dog new tricks" if you want. I've tried. But your cavalier attitude is just once again saying that they don't have to change their own country, and in coming here, we are expected to change so they don't have to.....in other words.....they don't have to do anything for themselves to make their lives easier in a new country....we have to give in to them. Sorry, but that's not just plain unacceptable.

And I'd like to point out.....look at the people we have just here in GI, let alone around the country. Here, we have a sizable Asian community, Sudanese, some Indians (as in India), and so on. I never hear them refusing to learn English, but expecting us to learn THEIR languages to accommodate them. The Sudanese I've dealt with have learned English, or if they are still the process, seem to always have someone there to help interpret.

If I had to move to a country that doesn't have English as it's primary language, I would NEVER demand that they have to accommodate me. Unless or until I could learn that language, I'd make sure I had someone along with me to interpret.....just as most other cultures here do. But I've had too many dealings with the Hispanics in this town when I've tried to talk to them. Especially if they're in a bit of trouble. They pull the "I don't speak English" line and just sit there with a look that says "What are YOU going to do about it."

And again.....I have actually been in the position of seeing jobs go to people FAR less qualified, even with NO experience, and even sometimes still need to reach the simple basic requirements for education, experience and skills for a position, simply because they are Spanish-speaking. Until you've been in that position, though, I guess you can keep an offhand attitude. In the mean time, do you or anyone else you know want to pay for the probably hundreds of hours of tutoring I would most likely need to learn Spanish so the Hispanics can continue to refuse to do any kind of business in English?

That's quite a leap from what I actually said. No, I'm not advocating that "all" citizens of this state and country should do anything. Somebody complained that they were being passed over for jobs because they can't speak Spanish. I thought it was you, and you ARE once again explaining why you can't get a job dealing with customers who speak Spanish.

I'm cavalier about people who want a job performing some act or service they aren't capable of doing.
I'd like to be a doctor, but I just don't have the aptitude in science. Therefore I have a couple of choices: study harder in science, or forget about becoming a doctor. The same situation applies with the person who wants a job dealing with customers who speak Spanish but doesn't have the aptitude to learn the language. They can study harder to learn Spanish or forget about that particular kind of job. As I pointed out earlier, there are plenty of jobs that you can do that don't require Spanish. Bitching about people whose native tongue is Spanish does nothing to improve your hire-ability with that employer who is requiring a Spanish-speaking employee.


Strange . . . . . that a person who speaks Spanish who gets a job that requires Spanish is described as "FAR less qualified" that a person who can't speak it.
Apparently, when all the attributes of those employees were considered by the employer, they placed a higher value on the language skill than you did. The other person (not chosen) can try to increase their value to future employers by adding a (common) language or accept being passed over for not having skills employers have the right to make one of their requirements.

Actually, I'm in that position now. I can't speak Spanish and would be eliminated from any job requiring it. But I don't apply for (and wouldn't expect to get) any job that requires Spanish -- just like I don't apply for jobs as a scientist or doctor either. If you want to call that an "offhand attitude", go for it. I call it being realistic.

As for paying for your tutoring: Sorry, you have to take responsibility for your own life sometime; besides, you won't appreciate it as much if somebody else gives it to you as if you paid for the tutoring and did the studying yourself.
You're probably right that you just don't have the aptitude and it wouldn't matter HOW many hours you tried to learn it. That's the case with me ever learning science good enough to become a doctor. Some things just have to be accepted. I won't ever be a doctor and you won't ever be chosen by any employer who wants his employees to communicate with his customers in Spanish.

I agree with your post OC....and enjoyed reading it. Nicely done.

Sometimes people want things given to them "just because...." Not a realistic viewpoint, but all too common, nonetheless.

Quite frankly, OC, I think you're purposely going out of your way to be completely and utterly obtuse, but that doesn't surprise me.

Not every job out there is a "business" that needs to provide "customer service". There are a lot of jobs out there that your tax dollars pay that, if done by someone who doesn't have the education and experience VITAL to performing the job, can lead to more harm than good. You can be as obtuse and flippant as you want, but I've seen with my own eyes people being hired ONLY because of their ability to speak Spanish, who's educational and experience requirements necessary to do the job are WAIVED, and then seen them then struggle to even know HOW to do their job, leaving those who have the necessary background to step in cover their mistakes. I do the very same job, and only rarely need an interpreter, and we have them on staff. I've seen highly qualified candidates that would have done an amazing job passed over for those same people I just described. And they end up costing you your tax dollars MORE because of the constant mistakes. Because of their lack of education and experience, I've seen them need almost twice the amount of training also.

But, again, you can deny it all you want, but you ARE going back to the fact that you believe that they don't have to work to change (ie, learn English), and we should all accommodate them. ...... even when it costs you a lot more tax dollars..... in a state where English is the OFFICIAL language.

Sorry you feel that I'm being "completely and utterly obtuse" and "purposely going out of my way" to do so. You're wrong, by the way. (Why so nasty? Can't you get your points across any other way?)

Not that I'm agreeing with you (would you care to list a few jobs that DON'T have a customer somewhere down the line?), but you might want to look for one of those jobs that don't provide customer service to Spanish speakers, since you can't speak it and can't (or won't) learn it.

It appears that you are trying to do a job you aren't equipped to do, and are upset when someone else is chosen and you are passed over. You have choices to make and they should be choices that you have an effect on, not ones that require other people to change. You say that there are jobs out there that don't provide customer service. Get one of those. I honestly think you would be happier if you don't have to interact with new arrivals to the US, who haven't yet learned the language. (Could you be just a tad bit prejudiced? You do come off that way.) People could complain that your refusal to learn a second language that would make you more valuable to your employer is costing them tax dollars in interpreters. One might even make the comparison between that interpreter who steps in to help you out to the experienced person who steps in to help the Spanish speaker out. What's the difference? Well, for one, the Spanish speaker will eventually learn how to do his job, but you will never learn to converse with customers who speak Spanish as you refuse to learn it.

Please don't tell me what I "believe". Nobody will take you seriously, since you don't know what I "believe". You can't even read accurately what I've posted.

In the end, it comes down to what WE personally can and will do to improve our work situation. Expecting other people to change to accommodate us is unrealistic and destined for disappointment. And whining about how those "other people" won't change to benefit us is fruitless and ..... well, embarrassing.

From William Hogeland, author of "The Whiskey Rebellion: George Washington, Alexander Hamilton and Frontier Rebels Who Challenged America's Newfound Sovereignty":

I'll take your whole statement and flip it; I have heard plenty of times from fellow Hispanics complaints about how they have applied for a specific job but were ultimitately passed over for someone else simply because the other person was white. whether or not I believe it I cannot say for sure. Do I think people are given better jobs over others simply because of the color of their skin? I think it does happen. How prevelant it is, I don't know.

But I think hiring discrimination and hiring based on an ability (able to speak a language other than English) are completely different. Do I believe you or someone else is being discriminated, no I don't. I don't expect to get a job where I don't meet a specific qualification. I know absolutely nothing about cars therefore I wont try and get a job a jiffy lube or Midas.

Assume WAY WRONG much there? I guess you must know me better than I know myself. Guess it doesn't matter that I haven't been speaking about ME but about what I've observed first hand.


I do. My job doesn't have anything to do with "customer service".

Now who's being nasty in a snide sort of way? And I see you never paid attention to the point I made about how it's only the Hispanics that refuse (and I have met many MANY like that) to learn English, while other's of other cultures have been more than willing to work on becoming a part of this society. Pointing out actual observations and experiences is not "prejudice", it's reality. But then it always seems that the first accusation by people that defend Illegals (and it's them that I'm talking about.....many an immigrant that has worked to get here LEGALLY are not causing these problems).


Only about 2% of the people I work with are ever spanish speaking, and the "interpreters" have always been people that do a specific job with interpreting being only ONE assignment of theres. But....you are going through all kinds of uneducated guesses about situations I speak of. But you can't seem to deal with the fact I'm not going to lay out every damn detail for you.


Whatever....you know not of what you speak. I laid it out in plain English....that's the problem, you probably want me to lay it all out in SPanish before you GET IT.


Please don't tell me about my life or what I see (your WAY WAY OFF by the way). And I interpreted your statement as I saw it: You keep saying people should learn Spanish if they want jobs, as more and more require people to be bilingual. And because of this position of yours, I have a right to conclude that you don't believe the illegals who refuse to do things the right and learn English don't have to change at all (after all they didn't stay in their own country to change things THERE). You believe OUR country should change for them.


You and I agree.......but the latter part of your statement shows your really confused....and you are embarassing yourself.

By the way, according to the CIA World Factbook, languages spoken by people living in the USA are: English 82.1%, Spanish 10.7%, other Indo-European 3.8%, Asian and Pacific island 2.7%, other 0.7%

Wow.....10.7% of the population dictates changes that affect a majority in this nation. Interesting.

The Pew Research Center estimates, based on government information, is that of the approx. 12 Million Illegal immigrants in this country nearly 60% are from MEXICO, with another 15-20% from other Central and South American countries. About 13% are Asian, with the rest being from basically the rest of the world.

I went to a 2-day seminar in Omaha about 3 years ago to attend discussion groups and listen to speachs about the Hispanic communities (oh my god! I must be prejudiced!!). The second and last night was a big dinner and a nationally known Hispanic speaker who's name now escapes me. He, and many others through those 2 days, all of them people who came here LEGALLY, all kept repeating the same thing over and over: If you want to come here and be successful, LEARN ENGLISH. The key note speaker was especially harsh. He talked about those that don't want to stop speaking their language and refuse to speak English. He said "Don't do that". He said speak your native language. Pass it down. But do NOT refuse to learn English in an English speaking country or your will not succeed.

Those are the thoughts of high-level leaders in the Hispanic communities all over this country. Guess they must also be prejudiced.

This is the last post of yours I'm responding to, OC. You have a horrible habit of baiting, parsing, and nitpicking, and I believe you do it on purpose. It's not worth the time, effort or frustration to even try to have any kind of conversation with you.

Now, go ahead and have your last word.